MightyRaze - Red Bandit

Nice Job Mighty.  I like the resto mod approach because it brings back fond memories of old red for me.

As I am serious enough about wheel horses to have the emblem tattooed on my chest so I would like to offer my expertise:

-you have the brake band installed upside down, however that is not an OEM spring but it was hooked to the right location, and even from the factory it stills rubs on the linkage and/or band, so I did a similar mod to improve it as well, I believe you have the correct 6 spd transmission because it literally says 6 speed on your dash decal, and your clutch/brake and trans are identical to red stag which is also a raider 12 but since that's a '69 it has the preceding hood design.  I'd had have to take a close look at your brake shaft location to see if it's been tampered with.  Is the brake hub on a 1" keyed shaft or is on a shaft with two flats cut into it??? On "8 speed" tractors the brake band is installed the other way because the brake hub is on a different shaft and those tractors have a separate brake pedal.

-I love that you kept the OEM carb and fuel pump as the quality is better than ebay and rebuild kits are available however I've been running a $40 plastic ebay knockoff fuel pump for approximately 13 years on the C-125 I mow with regularly with ZERO issues.

-you can test a condenser very easily with a multimeter

-you could have saved yourself a lot of trouble with fluffy.  We regularly encounter this problem at my farm and all we do it loosen and remove about (3) 1/4-20 bolts holding the small tin on top of the head and remove it.  This creates a large enough opening where you can retrieve most of the mouse nest, then we start the motor and the fan blows the rest of the debris out, then we re-install that small tin on top of the head. Kohler even slotted a couple of the holes in the tin to make this easier. 

-I recently bought a coil (with internal resistor) and universal short coil wire from napa that I just had to crimp a 90 degree spark plug end on for my C-100.  I had to do this due to really bad corrosion where the plug wire connects to the coil. However I went to crimp the end on and I'm like WTF is this carbon core?  Apparently it's the new wave in spark plug wire technology.  Anyway it started right up (once I put the condenser back on the right terminal...oopsies) and seemed to run a little better with the corrosion issue fixed.  I'm curious to put more hours on it this spring.

Edit: In my red stag thread I found a picture of my factory correctly installed brake band, however you can see I had to get a little creative with the brake linkage to make the separate pedal system work correctly.

Thanks @Crazy_Carl!

Where to start.

-Brake band.  I don't think mine is correct one, but I'll roll with it and see what happens.  It is on the 1" shaft. Not the lower one.  The way it is formed, I don't think it would install flipped.  It has an L (almost 90 degree bend) on the bolt up side.  Here is a pic of how it was installed when I got it.  Best Pic I had.  I figured it was a replacement transaxle as the tractor is a 1972 model, and everything I could find about the trans was a 6speed 5060 due to the 1" brake and oil extender which was in the 68-69 tractors by what I have researched.  This is my first horse to work with so I could be wrong and the info I saw could be incorrect as it was in another forum.



-Yeah, I tested the old condenser with the multimeter you sent me for a past build-off!  It failed the test.  The coil was dry inside, but still worked.  I'm certain it wouldn't be long for it to fail so I replaced it as well. 

-Thanks for the tip on the top tin.  I was already going to break it down to clean and paint.

-Thanks for the shot of your brake.  I think that is the correct band I should have. Where yours is flat from the bolts swinging back clockwise, where mine makes a near 90 and then wraps counterclockwise.  It doesn't appear tampered with either.

I'll roll with what I have.  Should the brake not stop well, I'll see about flattening it out a bit or I'll shoot over to Ebay and find the right looking one.  I'm sure they aren't too much.

@Crazy_Carl You really got me thinking about that brake band.  I think the one I have is for the lower smaller shaft.  I wonder if it turns the drum counterclockwise when going forward?  I just went out and checked my drum when rolling forward and my drum turns CLOCKWISE.  That would pretty much make my brake band useless and ineffective!  Since it is easy to get to, I'll see how it goes at first.  I don't plan on making this too fast right now.  I'll play it by ear for now.

Aye... 

 I wonder what the likelihood of that band snapping should I try to straighten it and reinstall it the other way.

Little late but that is one nice stance there!

Thanks for the close up pic of how you found it! It provides us a lot of clues.

-Have you reverse looked up your s/n on red square to figure out what model that chassis is supposed to be?

-In the pic you are clearly missing the clutch/brake style parking brake lever

-I agree with you that that is a factory brake band toro P/N 9593.  A replacement is expensive and if you notice there are two holes so it can be installed either way.

-Upon inspection of the transmission diagram for a 1972 raider 12, the brake band should be installed with the brake rod hole up however, your brake shaft is in the wrong location for that to work correctly.  I agree with your assessment that the transmission is unlikely to be the original.  I believe it was swapped and that's when I believe the parking brake disappeared and someone put that 90 degree bend in the band and rigged that spring to go over that brake rod.  That added friction and abrasion is not good.  Also if you look at this diagram for the clutch/brake setup on a 1972 raider, it clearly shows the brake rod hole up and a brake hub that appears to have a double D shape in the ID and you have the 1" shaft variety.

So you're in a little bit of a pickle now but that band should bend right back and you could heat it up to make it bend back easier. I'd set it up as if that tractor was a 69 and not a 72.

The rotation may or may not be an issue.  It all depends on what kind of riding you do.  My brake is sketchy on extreme hills when you start rolling backwards.  This is why I have plans and parts to go hydraulic, but I've been having some difficulty sourcing a 4" brake disc to go on a 1" shaft.

@Crazy_Carl  You came to the same conclusion I did.  I agree 100%!  I was thinking of reverting to as if the tractor was a 69.  I'll probably come back around to that once I get more done to the other side or I am waiting to get more parts for the creepycrawler style belt guides.  Just pushing the tractor then pressing the brakes will lock it up in the garage.  That isn't a off-road going down a hill test.  I also have been looking into replacing that spring for something stronger.  What I have will suffice for building, but I don't think it would last in prime time.

Many thanks for the insight!

@Crazy_Carl get your hands on a 1" bore 40 chain sprocket of the right diameter and have it machined to remove the teeth, brought down to final diameter and thinned to suit your needs, it's an idea I thought up a while back when thinking of how to set up a hydraulic brake on a live axle locked standard style transaxle like an MST or Dana 4000 series

Sorry for the off topic cross talk @MightyRaze but I had to strike while the iron is hot!  Lol.

**edit** I forgot that I also considered using them as rear (keyed) wheel hubs so I could run rear atv wheels.

@MightyRaze On Ol Red I ran a trampoline spring but my left knee hated it. Red Stag has the CreepyClutch which if done right, you don't need some giant spring unless you're running high horsepower or mud bogging. I'm running a user friendly OEM spring and before that was some lighter tension random hardware store spring that came with the tractor and it worked pretty well with the CreepyClutch too.

Brianator wrote:

@Crazy_Carl get your hands on a 1" bore 40 chain sprocket of the right diameter and have it machined to remove the teeth, brought down to final diameter and thinned to suit your needs, it's an idea I thought up a while back when thinking of how to set up a hydraulic brake on a live axle locked standard style transaxle like an MST or Dana 4000 series

Sorry for the off topic cross talk @MightyRaze but I had to strike while the iron is hot!  Lol.

I'm going to call it relevant as it could be a future mod. 

Crazy_Carl wrote:

@MightyRaze On Ol Red I ran a trampoline spring but my left knee hated it.  Red Stag has the CreepyClutch which if done right, you don't need some giant spring unless you're running high horsepower or mud bogging. I'm running a user friendly OEM spring and before that was some lighter tension random hardware store spring that came with the tractor and it worked pretty well with the CreepyClutch too.

I wasn't going to get crazy, but a replacement will be needed in the future.  I saw some good ones at the TSC nearby.

Brianator wrote:

@Crazy_Carl get your hands on a 1" bore 40 chain sprocket of the right diameter and have it machined to remove the teeth, brought down to final diameter and thinned to suit your needs, it's an idea I thought up a while back when thinking of how to set up a hydraulic brake on a live axle locked standard style transaxle like an MST or Dana 4000 series

Sorry for the off topic cross talk @MightyRaze but I had to strike while the iron is hot!  Lol.

Dang! That is a crazy good idea! I can think of a lot of uses that I could put that to. Too bad I don't have a metal lathe... ~Briefly considers attempting to use wood lathe as a metal lathe ~ I think you could use that as a brake disk, is that what you were suggesting? You'd just have to drill some holes for venting.

Electrical burn in test happening now.

Still don't have my pulley yet.  Just going with a 6 inch.  I realized one of my pipe bender tools was the right size not only in diameter, but the center shaft was 1-1/8 to fit over the pulley.

Did some planning and cutting.





I'll need to get some dog food sometime this week at the TSC.  I'll see if I can grab some flat stock to build my belt guides this weekend.  Maybe a new clutch spring too.  I have come to the conclusion the one on it is pretty weak.

@MightyRaze Man that belt system sure looks familiar lol. Anyway real question: Are you going to run the factory trans pulley for meow? I couldn't tell from the picture.

Crazy_Carl wrote:

@MightyRaze Man that belt system sure looks familiar lol.  Anyway real question: Are you going to run the factory trans pulley for meow?  I couldn't tell from the picture.

No, I swapped it.  Nothing too wild.  Just a little smaller.



Going 5" on the rear and 6" on the engine.  At least that is my plan.


BTW, nice profile pic. Don't remember that.

@MightyRaze  According to my top speed calculator you're looking at a top speed of 13mph with 25" tall tires @3600 rpm.  The stock kohlers with balance gears don't really like more rpm...

-did you make a special adapter key to pulley swap the trans?

-I had to retrofit a bearing in Red Stag and C-100 because the aluminum dash was too slopped out for a new bushing to do anything.  Did you drill the dash hole bigger then source a bushing from McMaster Carr?

My avatar is a screenshot from this video:

I have literally rolled this tractor at Creepy Crawler's(at night and when I turned the key off mid side roll everything went dark ), redzz02's TTC course (essentially went swimming with red stag on top but plus side soft landing), bare den (finding the balance point), destructive acres (crappy brakes going backwards down a hill) and hot lap's undisclosed location (first gen throttle cable setup was idle or everything), but never at my own hilly farm...hmmm

Crazy_Carl wrote:

@MightyRaze  According to my top speed calculator you're looking at a top speed of 13mph with 25" tall tires @3600 rpm.  The stock kohlers with balance gears don't really like more rpm...

-did you make a special adapter key to pulley swap the trans?

-I had to retrofit a bearing in Red Stag and C-100 because the aluminum dash was too slopped out for a new bushing to do anything.  Did you drill the dash hole bigger then source a bushing from McMaster Carr?

My avatar is a screenshot from this video:
I have literally rolled this tractor at Creepy Crawler's(at night and when I turned the key off mid side roll everything went dark ), redzz02's TTC course (essentially went swimming with red stag on top but plus side soft landing), bare den (finding the balance point), destructive acres (crappy brakes going backwards down a hill) and hot lap's undisclosed location (first gen throttle cable setup was idle or everything), but never at my own hilly farm...hmmm

I did not make an adapter key.  It seemed to fit like the stock.

I did see your bearing.  I that that idea on the shelf for now, but keeping it in mind.  I did drill the dash a bit larger for a bushing.  I think I got my bushing from the local hardware store.

Good info on the bearing not liking RPM.  I don't even have a foot throttle planned in this stage.

Man!  I have seen some of your wrecks in video. Got to take care of yourself.

MightyRaze wrote:

I did see your bearing.  I that that idea on the shelf for now, but keeping it in mind.  I did drill the dash a bit larger for a bushing.  I think I got my bushing from the local hardware store.

The steering on Red Stag is absolutely buttery with that bearing. Definitely a big part of the inspiration for me putting the same bearing on mutt's steering shaft.

It just a standard bearing setup?

@MightyRaze is it a standard spherical flangette bearing from ebay? Yes! is it a standard set up? umm hmmmm not really, but s few guys on Red Square have done this mod before me, even though I came up with the idea on my own at the time.
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I’m going to let you in on another trade secret here: the test driver, with a goofy hat, said my wheel horse has the tightest steering he’s ever felt. I spent about two hours carefully grinding and filing to get a better mesh between the fan gear and a little pinion gear on the steering column. It almost has zero play, but as you can tell, I have still skipped a few teeth and you can tell by looking at my steering wheel spokes lol. You’ve already performed the hardest part of this modification, which is removing the steering wheel. The second hardest part is making sure you get the steering column perfectly centered in the hole in the dash. I know you’re up to the challenge if you need it someday.

Many ask all the time.  There are several examples.  This is what I do.  

Measuring for a belt.  I keep an OLD belt that is 93".  No good for larger belts, but this one it works great.

I wrap it around all my pulleys at half to 1/4 clutch then attach the two ends.



I clamp it with a vise grip then run a couple screws through it so I can.

A- Measure the difference.  In this case an 84-1/2 wrap.  Probably an 84.

or

B - Take it in and do a measure at the store and get the new one.

That simple.

Also, as mentioned earlier, I will need a new spring.  The one I have is not very strong.

Question, can someone tell me what this plug or hex headed screw could be for in my Kohler K301?  I haven't found anything on it.  I'm tempted to just remove it as it could potentially get into my pulley.

@MightyRaze Looks like a set screw, couldn't hurt to try to remove it carefully

Well, I pulled it.

It has a dimple in the set screw.



But the hole just seems to be a regular pto side screw hole inside.





In other updates, Drive pulley is now installed post set screw pause.  I also have a belt.  Currently starting with an 85 it would appear.  I accidentally left my measuring belt at the store on the register.  Oops.  The slack is due to the parking brake is set.



I have started my belt guide.  I've paused on that too.  I lost some motivation today.



Motivation was lost due to weather coming in and it is going to get really cold the next few days.  Also, I tried to start it today and it would appear the fuel pump is bad.  If I prime it, it will shoot that out a couple times and stop.  It does not feed at all.  I pulled the feed and got gas from the tank.  

I think I will look into one of those cheap china plastic ones for the short time, evaluate and then look into the Briggs conversion later.

I saw somewhere where they used the old pump without the diaphragm for pulse.  I'll have to try to re-find that. Also, back to that motivation thing.  I guess I will have to look into that brake band discovery.  I realized I have been pushing it around the garage with the parking brake on at it's most tension setting doing NOTHING.

Yee haw.

Not sure how a fuel pump would actually work without the diaphram that seems odd to me...

You can get the diagram for the replacement pump and fit it in the old housing but I had to elongate the holes in it, did that on a friend's machine and used the original spring I think. I still say it's best to make a block off plate, install a fitting in it (for pulse) and install a pulse pump.