[24] cloneimals6x6 by JB_4x4

#Buildoff2024

What would you get if a crazy engineer cloned 3 lawn tractors and threw them into a test tube to see what would pop up? A cloneimals6x6* little beast all terrain lawn tractor.

Goal - build a diesel powered 4x6 or 6x6 lawn or garden tractor using, whenever possible++, parts that were offered on factory lawn tractors or garden tractors.  Try to avoid custom metal work beyond simple metal cutting and welding. I could go out and buy a cheap $3000 lathe, but, the idea is to complete a project others can follow and build. Though I plan on using my plasma cutter, it will not be beyond what a sawzall or cut off wheel could do with finesse.

I would like to keep it 36" or under in width, under 8 feet in length, under 800 pounds, roll cage that doubles as a rain and sun shade since this will actually be working in the fields and woods if I am successful. As anyone knows that lives in Georgia, it is not uncommon to get a heavy rain shower in the afternoon. Second seating that doubles as a dump bed. At least a dump bed.

++ I bought an All-Wheel Steer (AWS) rear axle from what I assume is a craftsman, to use as a front axle. Peerless 920.

Frame will be 3 or 4 " C-channel of 3/16", which I already have.

Painted white or forest green.  I paint many of my vehicles and such forest green.

Insulated coffee cup holders!

Ability to stow a big tool box, two spare tires, small medical kit, tire repair kit, compressor, extra 1-2 gallons of diesel.

Electric winch, group 24 or bigger battery, maybe a 120v inverter. Some sort of provision for at least a winch in the back if room allows.  Small floor jack (already have it).

Alternator with a minimum of 40 amps.

Be able to push or tow implements and trailers.

Front end loader.

Provision for weight brackets front and rear.

Most likely all the axles will be driven by hydraulics.  The front axle might be floating, though probably solid. Rear axle will be locked.

Top speed of 10 mph.  Has to have very low crawling speed and torque.

Ability to enable only the rear or middle axle for road or high traction travel.

Solid working mechanical parking brakes.

Somehow figure out a seat safety that cuts off the diesel.

The diesel engine for the moment is a Yanmar L100N clone I bought off Amazon. I will probably add some sort of glow plug for cold weather starting.

*Note: I own the URL cloneimals from an old video game I wrote. Just delete this line after reading.
** I think I will leave it















-Approved MightyRaze 1-9-24

[adm]Welcome to the 2024 ATLTF build-off!  That is going to be quite the machine when complete!

Good Luck!

[/adm]

JB_4x4 wrote:

Somehow figure out a seat safety that cuts off the diesel.

You going to use some kind of actuator for the compression release or possibly a fuel shutoff solenoind?

That's quite an ambitious build, sounds cool as all heck!  

Is that AWS gear or hydro? I have a hydro in my Noma which was apparently built by Murray, same as some of the Craftsmans. They have a limited amount of steering but I remember looking over mine thinking that it shouldn't be TOO hard to get some more out of it for a 4WD application.

The Murray with the 5 Speed most likely has a Dana/Foote 4350 or 4450 but could also have a Peerless, possibly a MST205.

The most important part of making it functional is getting the final drive at the wheels correct which can be tuned with tire size, with hydro trans' it's as easy as limiting other axle(s) speed to the slowest one via linkages. Apparently a gear driven 930 should have the same gear and final drive ratios as the 920, I did alot of research on it all when I picked up my Noma but it turned out to be amazing for cutting the grass and pulling a small trailer or lawn sweeper so I decided to leave it be.

Good luck man I'll be keeping a close eye on this build!

> You going to use some kind of actuator for the compression release or possibly a fuel shutoff solenoind?

Something mechanical for both the decompression valve and adjustable throttle. I have a selection of various throttle cables in my cart at BMI. I am probably going to buy 50 and 100 foot rolls of the housing (3/16) and inner cable (1/. Reuse the throttle levers from my scrap mowers.

> Is that AWS gear or hydro?

Better be gear :-D I tested it and it has 5 or 6 clicks using the lever. I am going to give it a quick test run using a 1/2" electric drill to make sure everything is okay before I take it apart. It appears to have a yellow plug used for some kind of fluid, maybe a neutral switch?

> They have a limited amount of steering

Yes, that was a concern of mine and still is. But, I had to get my hands on one to see how it is set up before addressing it or copying the setup onto a 1" axle peerless. I had questions concerning caster, camber, king pin angle, and others such things.

My biggest question was if the driveshaft slides in and out as the UJ turned when attached to the "spindle" and hub.

I have ordered this CVJ shaft to see if it will fit where the UJ is if I do not get a suitable angle on the axle. It may be as simple as making a bigger outside knuckle and reusing the current location of the pins. I am hoping it will fit in the space as is.

Ariens Front Axle Half-Shaft

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Power-Transmission/PTO-Shafts-Jack-Shafts/Drive-Shafts/Ariens-Front-Axle-Half-Shaft-28-1874.axd

At the very worse, I can use it for the second axle, though I rather keep it for the front driven axle as it cost me $323 from E-Bay. There was a whole lawn mower with the axle for sale on CL, but, it was in Kentucky, 400 something miles from me. It would have cost me a minimum of $264 in gas and oil to buy it.

The only reason I bought it was to properly enter the build off as I was looking for Samari axles to cut down and run off a Samari transfer case ($1000 from Summit Racing). I do not want to spend my time fabricating a custom one off axle for the front since I want to use it by spring time for plowing, fabricating takes time and $. I am trying to keep the drive line hardware for the contest to parts that were or are offered in small OPE.

> I have a hydro in my Noma which was apparently built by Murray, same as some of the Craftsmans.

What size tires on your mower? I see Craftsman offered 18", 20", and 23x8.50-12! I was debating if 23" would be pushing the design and I have not seen anything running bigger then 20".

Looks like a really cool build, couple thoughts:
-not sure how much weight you plan on putting on that front loader but I would question how well that front axle will hold up, I assume you plan to reinforce?

-I like your idea of a belly mower, perhaps since you already are planning on a decent hydraulic setup you could "just" make it an attachment for the front loader, kinda like the setup they use to put brushcutters on skid steers.
(Actually another cheaper option would be to make it a loader attachment but run it off an old 12 ish HP briggs instead of a hydrualic motor, however, this would limit the angle you could run it at and make it less capable.)

-If you have a front loader you are not going to want a floating front axle, the second you put any weight on that it will bottom it out, you also are not going to want it to be solid, that will end with broken frames or axles due to having no flex in the system

-Are you planning on putting suspension on the rear axles?

-Are you planning on having hydraulic drive and gears or just control the speed with the hydraulics?

JB_4x4 wrote:

What size tires on your mower?

20x10-8 but I can only assume they're stock.

> not sure how much weight you plan on putting on that front loader

100-125# for the structure, tied to the middle of the frame, 200-300# max for bucket load.  36" width.  Meant to scoop and dump compost and gravel into a yard trailer faster and easier then by hand.  

My city has free compost at the landfill which I used for my built raised beds.  But, they will also dump 10-20 yard truck loads of it for $75-$150.  It took me a LONG time to shovel 10 yards into my small trailers in the front yard, to dump it in the back yard into the raised beds.  I ended up shoveling it into 42 gallon barrels, 1/2 full,  and then dumping the barrels into the garden beds to make it go quicker.  I could use 30-40 more yards before next spring planting ...

Plus, I shared with my neighbor and ended up dumping maybe 1-2 yards in his garden area which I tilled for him. They would like more.

I am currently working on my small dump trailer to solve one half of the time and labor problem, now I am planning to solve the other half.

> I assume you plan to reinforce?

If you mean the axle, no, though I plan on counter weight in the rear and tying the arms-pivot points to the middle of the 6x6 over the 2nd axle.

> Are you planning on putting suspension on the rear axles?

I WANT to, so it can be used off road by people.  I have watched a few videos and where people get stuck many times with the LT is when the plow into a creek bank with the front and the rear axle stays fixed with maybe one solid wheel contact.  Or the front drops into a hole, they create a whirlpool with the vertical engine, and the rear only gets traction when they rock back and forth side to side.

I already have thick walled 2" tubing for pallet racks. I have been thinking about making cradles for the axles, which I was skid plating anyways for protection and strength, and attach them to the frame with pillow blocks so they pivot in the middle, and use outside springs or struts for the suspension. This way you could drive over rocks or trees at an angle and keep at least one wheel of the axle on the ground, while the others flex as much as possible.  Though we are talking only 3-4" travel up and down on any side.

>  -Are you planning on having hydraulic drive and gears or just control the speed with the hydraulics?

Working 5 speed transaxles that use pressure compensated valves to drive hydraulic motors.  Which is the reason I am still thinking about pivoting axles because the hydraulic motor has to be attached to the transaxle AND still drive the fan, with the hoses flexing up and down.  So, I have to go from NPT fittings to some sort of O-ring seal fitting that can also support a quick disconnect in case a hose or fitting goes down.

I originally was going to go with a spool for each motor, but, it is too complicated and most importantly the block of motor spools needed for it would be well over $1200.  I think I am going with a 3 spool block, one motor spool, two regular DA spools. One spool for the FE loader joystick, and one for an alternator.  

If I want to disable the 2nd and 3rd axle for a tight turn, I just shift them to neutral.  The way the motor spool works with the motors I plan on using, if I use Peerless transaxles, I should be able to keep them in gear and just reverse the hydraulic motors to get reverse. Because the Peerless are straight cut gears.  This should save a lot of shifting time going to a pile, getting a bucket load, backing up, going to a trailer, dumping, and backing up again.  All I have to move is a single lever and put my foot on the "gas" pedal valve.

> 20x10-8 but I can only assume they're stock.

Thanks, that is one size listed in the Craftsman manual, not sure I want to risk putting on 23" tires and risking breaking a very hard to axle or nuking parts that are not attainable. Though the knuckles look like they could take some weight.

JB_4x4 wrote:

> not sure how much weight you plan on putting on that front loader

100-125# for the structure, tied to the middle of the frame, 200-300# max for bucket load.  36" width.  Meant to scoop and dump compost and gravel into a yard trailer faster and easier then by hand.  

My city has free compost at the landfill which I used for my built raised beds.  But, they will also dump 10-20 yard truck loads of it for $75-$150.  It took me a LONG time to shovel 10 yards into my small trailers in the front yard, to dump it in the back yard into the raised beds.  I ended up shoveling it into 42 gallon barrels, 1/2 full,  and then dumping the barrels into the garden beds to make it go quicker.  I could use 30-40 more yards before next spring planting ...

Plus, I shared with my neighbor and ended up dumping maybe 1-2 yards in his garden area which I tilled for him. They would like more.

I am currently working on my small dump trailer to solve one half of the time and labor problem, now I am planning to solve the other half.

> I assume you plan to reinforce?

If you mean the axle, no, though I plan on counter weight in the rear and tying the arms-pivot points to the middle of the 6x6 over the 2nd axle.

> Are you planning on putting suspension on the rear axles?

I WANT to, so it can be used off road by people.  I have watched a few videos and where people get stuck many times with the LT is when the plow into a creek bank with the front and the rear axle stays fixed with maybe one solid wheel contact.  Or the front drops into a hole, they create a whirlpool with the vertical engine, and the rear only gets traction when they rock back and forth side to side.

I already have thick walled 2" tubing for pallet racks. I have been thinking about making cradles for the axles, which I was skid plating anyways for protection and strength, and attach them to the frame with pillow blocks so they pivot in the middle, and use outside springs or struts for the suspension. This way you could drive over rocks or trees at an angle and keep at least one wheel of the axle on the ground, while the others flex as much as possible.  Though we are talking only 3-4" travel up and down on any side.

>  -Are you planning on having hydraulic drive and gears or just control the speed with the hydraulics?

Working 5 speed transaxles that use pressure compensated valves to drive hydraulic motors.  Which is the reason I am still thinking about pivoting axles because the hydraulic motor has to be attached to the transaxle AND still drive the fan, with the hoses flexing up and down.  So, I have to go from NPT fittings to some sort of O-ring seal fitting that can also support a quick disconnect in case a hose or fitting goes down.

I originally was going to go with a spool for each motor, but, it is too complicated and most importantly the block of motor spools needed for it would be well over $1200.  I think I am going with a 3 spool block, one motor spool, two regular DA spools. One spool for the FE loader joystick, and one for an alternator.  

If I want to disable the 2nd and 3rd axle for a tight turn, I just shift them to neutral.  The way the motor spool works with the motors I plan on using, if I use Peerless transaxles, I should be able to keep them in gear and just reverse the hydraulic motors to get reverse. Because the Peerless are straight cut gears.  This should save a lot of shifting time going to a pile, getting a bucket load, backing up, going to a trailer, dumping, and backing up again.  All I have to move is a single lever and put my foot on the "gas" pedal valve.

Love it. thanks for that, I will be keeping a very close eye on this, I would also love some very technical details when you build the loader, as I plan on building one of those as well, stuff like what cylinders and pump you used as well as cylinder length, bore, what angles you are running for lift, all those goodies

Hi,

I will try! I am doing this so people can build one themselves. So, if I forget something or do something stupid feel free to mention it.

JB_4x4 wrote:

Hi,

I will try!  I am doing this so people can build one themselves. So, if I forget something or do something stupid feel free to mention it.

Have you looked into PF engineering loader plans?

They are quite pricey, but if you use... certain keywords... sometimes you can find them at an extremely steep discount (as in very very very very steep if you catch my drift) shoot me a pm if you are looking into using them.

> Have you looked into PF engineering loader plans?

No, though I will.  Their "Pin-on Mini Payloader" looks more along the lines of what I want to do.  Though I might just buy one brand new if cheap enough, though I rather make my own, learn on the way, and make it from scrap metal and surplus parts.

https://www.loaders.com/Front-End-Loaders/Compact-Series-10-90-HP/TA-52

I like their quick detach for the hydraulics and two pins with hydraulic disconnect, no lifting.

I just picked up a fully functional, running, driving, cutting Murray Widebody XL (?) for $125 delivered!  As I hoped, it has a Peerless 206 ( MST-206-502C) six speed in it.



I have to measure tomorrow, but, I think it's frame is more ladder like and thicker then my 1998 Murray.

Only thing really wrong is no brakes, trying to fix the brakes, I broke the bolt head off on the nearest bolt to the back, and the brake rotor is frozen to the shaft.  So, I had to give up tonight after spraying it with some PBlaster since it is now getting in the 30s and I do not want to be laying out on the cold ground with coyotes and whatever else around, all by myself.

I checked, it looks like the yard machine junker, with the F-N-R CVT that I scrapped, the rotor and pads might fit this new one until I get time to go through the whole transaxle.  Hopefully I now have 3 peerless axles that are all 6 speeds so I can match gears if I have to.

You probably got notification about welcome to the build-off.  I forgot to give your badge and put you in the group.  

Thanks, to be honest, I never noticed the exclusion. I am entering another build in the next couple of days.  This one is going to be a fun woods or whatever built vs. this build which is for working.

I fixed the Murray's brakes, for free except for labor time, changed all the fuel lines, added a better filter, and shut off valve. Made a video of the repairs. Then used it to pull 5 carts full of firewood.  Lessons learned:

#1) If you are stalled on a hill under full throttle and the wheels are not moving, the belt probably is moving.  

#2) Rocking side to side while spinning wheels going up hill on mud and leaves is no substitute for a locked rear end.

#3) The only brake parts off a F-N-R that transfer readily to a MST-206 are the pads.  Which saved me $18 and two days of waiting from an Amazon order.

#4) When pulling 300+ pounds of firewood, a two wheel cart with a ball coupler that puts weight on the rear end is probably a better choice then a 300# 4 wheel cart cart that can not be backed down straight that puts no weight on the rear axle and just creates draw bar drag.

#5) Getting stuck on my property with a riding lawn mower

is a much better time then getting drenched in gear oil from a truck's rear axle at work.

This sounds epic. Love it.I'm still not clear on whether the drive train is mechanical or hydraulic? Traction wise would a 4x6 layout with open diffs to keep steering easier be enough?  Tracks? Even if you achieve only a couple of your planned elements on a more conventional tractor base this will still be a very cool build.  Looking forward to seeing what you come up with

> I'm still not clear on whether the drive train is mechanical or hydraulic?

All manual transaxles, probably all six speeds, front AWS is a Peerless 920, others will be peerless, I am taking the John Deere apart. I assume the manual transaxle is a Peerless.

The older Murray, the piston appears to be broken in 1/2. The transmission is a Dana 5 speed , which I can not use.

I might switch the Dana into the newer black Murray and take the Peerless 6 speed out of that for the build. Hate to do that since now it runs and tows excellent, even with the open diff.

> Traction wise would a 4x6 layout with open diffs to keep steering easier be enough? Tracks?

6x6, all Peerless manual 6 speeds, probably all 18x8.5-8 mud tires on four lug wheels. All open, except for the rear which will be locked. All will be individually selective, so, you could use the front by itself for tight cutting, just like in a 4x4 truck with a doubler, the 2nd open axle would be used for transport on hard surfaces, the locked rear for normal 2x6 off road until you needed to engage the other two axles. The front would probably only be engaged for climbing out of gulleys or river banks or for going down steep hills.

I ordered 3/4" ID tubing from Amazon to try to make custom brakes, unfortunately it is only .73 inches ID and will not slide over the 3/4" axle. Looks like another return is in order. i did buy a special $30 3/4" bit from ZORO (?) for making exact .75" holes. But, I am not going to use it to hog out a tube for which I paid good money in a 12" length.

re:tracks

I doubt I will put it on this build, I need to get it up and running for the FEL build. I am building a library, redoing my rear deck, my rear stairs, and starting on my roof. So, I need this 6x6 at least running and driving on at least one axle, so, I can do the FEL. Though I might put tracks on the 6x8 Snapper just for kicks.

Looks like I found a place that offers off road access through private woods for ATVs, so, I can have a more extreme testing ground once I have things dialed in.

I have been experimenting in how to lock the parking brake solid and how to provide better braking in general.  The trouble with the spring based leverage is it fails on steep hills, especially backwards while towing a cart ...If your steering console has any slop or you are twisted up, the locking function pulling up on the lever may fail.

So ... trying to get 2-3 axles to stop with a foot pedal AND function as a parking with multiple linking bars or multiple springs, using a console lever  = not so good.  

What I have come up with as an easy fix is to run a cable from the hole in the factory brake lever arm while keeping the factory spring, then running a (coated) 1/8" cable to  the deck lowering lever (in this test the clutch lever).

Using this setup, if you apply the factory brake foot pedal first (which moves the spring), then using your arm, you can hold the tractor facing down a steep hill with arm pressure.  Now, that I know this works, the next step is using a locking deck height lever with the push button in the handle and see if I can get it to lock solid using just that as a parking brake.





By using multiple holes on the metal hand lever, I "should" be able to hook up to multiple axles with multiple cables with each cable adjusted to the length needed.