IT"S BACK!!! 2022 BUILD-OFF RULES HERE!!!

Bravo!

Thanks for the playground @doug!

Can i enter two tractors because im heading to pickup another tractor here in a few minutes nvm they sold it

Budget_gokart wrote:

Can i enter two tractors because im heading to pickup another tractor here in a few minutes nvm they sold it

FYI... yes.

Well story goes a guy went to a buddies house asked his wife and now a guy is gonna wire a dixie chopper and a certain guy has a tractor in the back of his truck. Welp i guess im doin 2 buildoff tractors one forsure will be finished not sure on my other one due to needing a starter.

Its really a Question but also could be taken as input.

So I read over the rules this year and I do like the changes that were made. (I always thought that an atv or motorcycle engine could be used, my idea would be if you could fit it under the hood  without losing the basic shape /look of the hood / tractor - go for it. )

So now my question go's to the "space frame".  
           If someone were to say build an entire tube chassis  and manage in the end to really not change the look of the tractor - shouldn't it be able to participate? (Since there is a rule saying something about resemblance of an tractor when finished.  

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this -    there should be consideration for a additional rule that says something like this.  
*open build- use what you want and build it how you want but final product must strongly resemble a yard or garden tractor. This is a build off, so build.

It's just been an opinion I had over the last few years.

I think the rules are flexible, exceptions have so far been dealt with on an individual basis for the most part,

muddstir wrote:

Its really a Question but also could be taken as input.

So I read over the rules this year and I do like the changes that were made. (I always thought that an atv or motorcycle engine could be used, my idea would be if you could fit it under the hood  without losing the basic shape /look of the hood / tractor - go for it. )

So now my question go's to the "space frame".  
           If someone were to say build an entire tube chassis  and manage in the end to really not change the look of the tractor - shouldn't it be able to participate? (Since there is a rule saying something about resemblance of an tractor when finished.  

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this -    there should be consideration for a additional rule that says something like this.  
*open build- use what you want and build it how you want but final product must strongly resemble a yard or garden tractor. This is a build off, so build.

It's just been an opinion I had over the last few years.

Ah!  That is where I gave a "Grey" area this year.

4.) No automobile, truck, SUV, etc. chassis or engines allowed. No ATV chassis, or "Compact Tractor" chassis from larger homestead+ tractors allowed. Passable examples are: Lawn tractor, yard tractor, garden tractor and mini chassis’, stock or modified. Custom-built chassis are allowed provided the end result will be resemblant of a lawn or garden tractor chassis in appearance. Specifically, ladder, tunnel, or pan-style. No space frames, or frames made primarily from tubing that are resemblant to go karts, rock crawlers/ bouncers, etc.  (Tube skeletons for bracing and exoskeletons are permitted upon approval.  Must "wrap" a portion of the tractor or strengthen lawn tractor frame. Not replace a portion of the tractor.)  




If you have a base "frame" that is like a ladder, then it looks spacy from there I think we would be lenient.  For instance, @mr.modified's Simplicity Broadmoor 728 XC for example.  I'm sure it will look "tractory" in the end.  The Tracta-cooler a while back was a stretch but was allowed.  Now taking tractor parts and setting it on a 4-wheeler.  That is unacceptable.  Scabbing the front suspension of an atv on a tractor frame is, ok.  (At least in my book).  Maybe @Doug can elaborate his thoughts?

muddstir wrote:

Its really a Question but also could be taken as input.

So I read over the rules this year and I do like the changes that were made. (I always thought that an atv or motorcycle engine could be used, my idea would be if you could fit it under the hood  without losing the basic shape /look of the hood / tractor - go for it. )

So now my question go's to the "space frame".  
           If someone were to say build an entire tube chassis  and manage in the end to really not change the look of the tractor - shouldn't it be able to participate? (Since there is a rule saying something about resemblance of an tractor when finished.  

I guess what I'm trying to get at is this -    there should be consideration for a additional rule that says something like this.  
*open build- use what you want and build it how you want but final product must strongly resemble a yard or garden tractor. This is a build off, so build.

It's just been an opinion I had over the last few years.

Here’s the problem with building a space frame that still resembles a tractor



This one is obviously a space frame and obviously looks like a tractor. Is it? Not at all. The hood, fenders and floors and seat are all that’s left of the tractor. Is it a cool build? Absolutely. Is it still a lawn tractor? Absolutely not.

And there’s my 2c lol.

Would you truly consider it a space frame?  He did do a ladder style frame inside the body panels.

At this point, I'd call it a custom ladder frame.



This on the other hand is a definite space frame.



Ultimately @Doug is the final word.

It's the classic soda or pop,  - what came first chicken or egg,  - or when does a tractor build disqualifies as tractor.
It all comes down to personal opinion.

Over the years I've seen some builds that in the end looked nothing like a tractor.  They had an ope, a transaxle, and maybe a seat or a hood, but in the end who am I to say what a tractor is so all I did was vote for the one that fits my beliefs that was built the best.


All I was trying to get at is maybe open the rules up a little more and it may bring in some more builders. Since this isn't a sanction sport and there is no competition event for the finalist, we all just vote for the one we like the best.

Like I said before it's just an opinion I had over the years on the build off.

muddstir wrote:

It's the classic soda or pop,  - what came first chicken or egg,  - or when does a tractor build disqualifies as tractor.
It all comes down to personal opinion.

Over the years I've seen some builds that in the end looked nothing like a tractor.  They had an ope, a transaxle, and maybe a seat or a hood, but in the end who am I to say what a tractor is so all I did was vote for the one that fits my beliefs that was built the best.


All I was trying to get at is maybe open the rules up a little more and it may bring in some more builders. Since this isn't a sanction sport and there is no competition event for the finalist, we all just vote for the one we like the best.

Like I said before it's just an opinion I had over the years on the build off.

I was part of the original discussion on this rule so let me clear it up a bit.
The point of the ruling was to level the paying field. Anyone can get for free or very cheap a frame to build from. What not everyone has is the tools to build and pay for the making of a space frame. Its the difference of a pro street drag vers a funny car, or for the truck guys a Mega truck verse a Monster.

The rule was made to keep the core of every build the same. Engine mods go for it spend all the money you want. Speed up kit the rear all you want. Those things are the icing on the cake but we all start with the same cake mix.

WOW I missed the whole discussion.
I think the rules are fine.

This IS a tractor forum and I personally feel that you should start with a tractor and end with a tractor, period! Not resemblant of a tractor, not a few tractor parts on a custom frame or chassis but a actual tractor including a OPE motor  (or a SUITABLE replacement) or you risk not only ruining the purity of our unique "sport" but you'll end up taking the hopes of winning away for alot of people that don't have the tools, skills or funds to compete against high dollar builds so for them it's just not fun anymore and if you're not in it for fun then what's the point? It's not like there's a big dollar prize at the finish line or anything...

I understand this year is the exception to the rule and why the rules were tweaked and opened up, heck the build off was canceled because there was only a handful of us floating around here late last year, not nearly enough to do a build off and I think it was a great idea to have a more "for fun, bragging rights" one than nothing at all!

All I'm saying is this is a grassroots "sport" and a unique one at that (same with the ATLTF), if you destroy the purity of it and allow anything goes (for the build off) then it'll end up being ruined like hot rodding was. Hot rods in their proper and purist form are vehicles that have been stripped of anything unnecessary to go fast, tweaked and modded 6 ways from Sunday with spare parts, not a $100,000 custom build with ratty body bolted onto it! True hot rodding died long ago but it did lay a foundation for the future.

That's my 18 cents, do with it what you will! Lol

Personally I think anybody can strap a non ope engine in a modded frame and make something cool that goes fast and/or muds wonderfully. The skill though is in building something with limited resources; a 14.5 briggs pushing a LT to 40 mph or a 2wd garden tractor plowing through deep mud gets my respect any day.

I’m big into semi truck pulling and tractor pulling and you can strap a big bud to a sled and win without question, but the real fun is taking that old 4020 deere and making er drag that sled to your driveway. I respect the skills in the build more than the build itself. This is a fine art IMHO and a real craftsman can build a beautiful bookshelf with cedar and make it look just as good as a mahogany one.

I’m not going to get into the politics of the debate but that’s just my thought.

All good input, I personally see both sides of the story.  We would like to have at least 2 classes of build-off.  The standard class like we had, and a Modified class that opens it up a lot.  We just don't have the numbers to do that and be fair.  

Historically, we have just gone with like @RCG said, a singular class to level the playing field.  That worked well for about 7 years until we were down to just 2 people that competed in 2020 in the end.  Add a pandemic, and what is the point for a 2021 build-off.  Up until early December, @Doug and I was still not inclined to do a build-off, but we re-evaluated the #'s and the site had been picking up pretty regularly since late summer.  We made our final decision around Christmas to go with it and allow more engines to compete.  Some people may not have normal OPE engines lying around, but maybe some small off roading engines.  We thought it would help open it up to more people this year.  Don't like the idea, that is OK.  Remember, you guys get to vote your winners.    I have an entry; will I use an atv style engine?  Nope nor do I want to.  Do I have issues with competing with someone that will use a motorcycle engine?  Nope, because I know many of you like @Brianator, won't vote that way.  As for starting and ending with a tractor.  I see merit "Starting with a tractor" but ending with a tractor.  There are questions that need cleared up maybe there.  
Like does it still need to be able to use its mower or implements?  Or just use the frame from the original tractor?  What if we stretched our frames? Would that still be a tractor?  You get it.  That's why we use "Resemblant of a tractor."  Even that has bit us in the rear, how resemblant?  Again, a subjective term.  Would you call these resemblant of a tractor?
(NOTE I am not personally digging at these builds.  I have been asked questions about them from other members.)

1.  2018
   
2.  2017
   
3. 2017
   
4. Dare I mention:
   2016 Winner.
   
   

Yes, I was hammered by a member that the Diesel weasel was a go-kart with a tractor hood. Even though I mentioned to them everything was tractor and the frame although extended was a tractor frame.  I don't know.  I will say either way the administration gets it from all directions, and we do what we can to give you a fun competition to do.  Mower modification has come a long way from tire swaps and pulley changes.  I can say that.

The class thing would be cool but could you imagine the logistics of multiple classes even if there were enough entrants! Lol.

Fearless Front has a vision when he started this craziness and many others believed in what he was doing and joined in the fun, seems like the best thing to do to honor our founding fathers would be to try and keep it as close to original rules as possible of course with minor updates. If someone has a vision of a machine they want to build they're going to do it build off or not and all the power to them, ill be following it! Lol

I am a big fan of opening up the rules to encourage new competitors. I just think there should be some basic rules to keep the final result looking like a tractor. for example you can use any of the engine you want but you have to use a lawnmower or a garden tractor transmission. You have to keep at least 50% of the frame and it must have fenders and hood.

Brianator wrote:

The class thing would be cool but could you imagine the logistics of multiple classes even if there were enough entrants! Lol.

Fearless Front has a vision when he started this craziness and many others believed in what he was doing and joined in the fun, seems like the best thing to do to honor our founding fathers would be to try and keep it as close to original rules as possible of course with minor updates. If someone has a vision of a machine they want to build they're going to do it build off or not and all the power to them, ill be following it! Lol

Logistics would be hard admin/mod staff would have to increase to at least 2014 numbers and participation.

I was thinking the B/O was a carryover with @doc sprocket from the DIY Gokart crew in 2014.  I think Fearless had already started declined input to the site if he even administered much anymore by then.  I do think the rules should be based in fairness as stated earlier.

Crazy_Carl wrote:

I am a big fan of opening up the rules to encourage new competitors.  I just think there should be some basic rules to keep the final result looking like a tractor.  for example you can use any of the engine you want but you have to use a lawnmower or a garden tractor transmission.  You have to keep at least 50% of the frame and it must have fenders and hood.

I also agree with opening it a little bit.  Some OPE's do make use of atv/utv/motorcycle/snowmobile engines.  That is why we have opened it to that.  The 3-4 cylinder may just be a 2022 thing.  Went a little wild with that one.  I agree that the end product should resemble a tractor or riding mower of sorts.  Having to use a transaxle... with that we would be eliminating some Racer and speed build people.  The Diesel Weasel 2016 winner has no transaxle. Also, not all garden tractors in the 50's and 60's came with fenders. Just a thought.

Brianator wrote:

Fearless Front has a vision when he started this craziness and many others believed in what he was doing and joined in the fun, seems like the best thing to do to honor our founding fathers would be to try and keep it as close to original rules as possible of course with minor updates. If someone has a vision of a machine they want to build they're going to do it build off or not and all the power to them, ill be following it! Lol

That is a big negative on that statement. Fearless walked out on this forum long before that. He planned to shut all this down and Doug saved it. That was the reason I came back and promoted the first build off and several after.

The history of this forum is a strong reality regarding who actually cares about this sport and worked to grow it over the last 10 years.

RCG wrote:

That is a big negative on that statement. Fearless walked out on this forum long before that. He planned to shut all this down and Doug saved it. That was the reason I came back and promoted the first build off and several after.

Wow I had no idea... I mean I knew he walked away and Doug was eventually able to get control but I didn't know FF bounced that quickly. Based on older posts he seemed much more active and I just assumed...I'm sorry for the incorrect statement and I appreciate the history lesson!

So the frame thing. That rule was put in to try and exclude any chance of someone entering a quad/ go kart/ full rock bouncer build. But had to be worded so it wouldnt exclude those odd tractors you find out there that are literally just a few frame rails or tubes like the Bolens tractors from the 60s/70s. Its always a pain to try and say yes or no and have to scrutinize if something is a space frame or not, we dont want to discourage fabrication but we gotta keep everyone on the same plane.

Brianator wrote:

RCG wrote:

That is a big negative on that statement. Fearless walked out on this forum long before that. He planned to shut all this down and Doug saved it. That was the reason I came back and promoted the first build off and several after.

Wow I had no idea... I mean I knew he walked away and Doug was eventually able to get control but I didn't know FF bounced that quickly. Based on older posts he seemed much more active and I just assumed...I'm sorry for the incorrect statement and I appreciate the history lesson!

I just took over the bills. Todd unfortunately left a little while before I took over in late 2016 while I was laid up. He probably wouldve kept up with them but I didnt think it was entirely fair so I offered to take it over for him. I still hope someday he will come back but its unlikely.

[adm]Please continue discussion here -> 2022 Build-Off Discussion[/adm]

[mod]Lets keep this thread open for 2022 Build-Off questions. Thanks![/mod]

MightyRaze wrote:

Would you truly consider it a space frame?  He did do a ladder style frame inside the body panels.

At this point, I'd call it a custom ladder frame.



This on the other hand is a definite space frame.

This thing looks like a Formula one tractor chassis. Pretty cool.

Well anyways, I'll get my act together and enter my build then. Thanks guys.